Vive Pro - USB C (Thunderbolt) vs HDMI Adapter

[withayk]

Hi team,

Just wanted to ask if I have any potential solutions here:

I have the Dell G5 15 laptop with a Nvidia 1060 Max Q. However, it only has two ports - a HDMI and USB C (thunderbolt). 
In the Nvidia Control Panel  I can see that the Video card seem to only be linked to the HDMI port - while the intergrated Intel seems to power the USB C. 

The Vive Pro headset work going through a USB C to Display Port adapter but I get low frames (high quality, just stuttering on headset movement).

Is there any setting I can try - or should I get rid of the laptop or the headset? :(

Any advice will be helpful, thanks

[PatrickM]

I have the exact same issue. Vive tech support told me to buy a new laptop, but I bought the Dell G3 with 1060 Max Q and Thunderbolt 3 and modded it wth 32GB of RAM and 1 TB SSD  because there should be nothing technically preventing it from being VR ready for any device. 8th gen i7 CPU.

 

It is marketed all over the internet as an affordable 'VR ready' machine, Thunderbolt 3 should easily support a DisplayPort signal. I am extremely disappointed that HTC tech support are telling me to shell out £1000 on an entirely new computer just because of one technical hiccup where a Thunderbolt port can't speak to a Displayport, when a Thunderbolt is basically a DisplayPort with extra stuff. They share all the same DNA. This is bread and butter stuff imho. The whole purpose of Thunderbolt 3 is that people don't have to buy a new laptop for all occassions, and it's the job of the manufacturer to make it work imho, not mine to have 12 laptops for every  external device that I purchase.

 

I am using the Vive Pro, setup goes fine apart from the HMD display just mirroring the desktop display, not displaying what it should be.

[PatrickM]

It's a pure design fact of Laptops that they will be constrained on the ports that they are able to have. This is why laptops marketed as 'VR Ready' don't have a DisplayPort but instead USB-C or Thunderbolt 3 to cover all the edge cases.

 

It's then beyond belief to me that HTC are telling me I need a laptop with a specific Displayport output, configured in a specific way. The whole purpose of Thunderbolt 3 is that is covers all these bases in one, surely the right drivers/firmware should be able to make this work instead of advising me, who has spent the best part of £1200 on a brand new Vive Pro, to go spend another £1000 just to get a compatible port for your cabling system. It's ridiculous. I might expect this from a used car salesman, but the Vive Pro is supposed to be the world leading VR device for VR Ready laptops and desktops. I bought one brand new off the shelf delivered from Taiwan. This should work, there is no good reason to my mind why it should not. Please surely this can be resolved.

[HackPerception]

I have a couple of notes here:

   

• Displayport 1.2+ is a hard requirement of the Vive Pro HMD. There is no workaround to this. If your GPU cannot support DisplayPort 1.2+ signaling on either a native DisplayPort, a MiniDisplayport, or a USB-C port that's capable of supporting DisplayPort1.2+ signaling. 
  • Note: The Oculus Rift S and Valve Index both have the same requirement!
• You're both running GTX1060 - MaxQ. MaxQ is a less-powerful version of the Desktop 1060 - it is not equivalent to a desktop 1060 chipset. The GTX1060 Max Q is below the Vive Pro's system requirements; the difference between a GTX1060 and a 1060Max Q is significant when it comes to the higher resolution requirements of the Pro. 
  • This is a situation where Nvidia's naming scheme is super confusing. A GTX1060 Max Q is less powerful than a GTX970 (Vive Pro's Min hardware req)
• There are two things at play here. Hardware system requirements for the Vive and then system requirements for the software you're running which has additional overhead. For the majoirty of content, you'll want a GTX1070 to hit 90FPS at 100%ss with minimal reprojection on Vive Pro or any HMD of similar resolution.

 

 

• The only real thing to do in this case is to override the default resolution of the HMD and lower it down to something that gives your GPU a fighting chance. First, make sure you have motion smoothing enabled. Next go to SteamVR -> Video -> Application Resolution -> Enable Custom Resolution. Lower this value and see how it affects your frame timing. You can also try on an app by app basis to see if there are things you can turn off to improve perf. 
• Within SteamVR -> Settings there is  graph on the bottom lefthand corner. If your Value is above 11.1ms, your GPU is unable to mantain 90FPS and will stutter. Ideally you'd be under 11.1ms at all times. 

 

• While I understand your frustration, the Displayport 1.2+ requirement for Vive Pro is clearly listed on all pages that list the minimum requirements. With PC hardware and software, it's your responsibility to ensure your system meets the minimum requirements. This is true of all VR desktop hardware and software.
• You do not need to go out and spend $1000 on a compatible port. You need a Laptop or Desktop PC with the compatible port. In your case you'd need a completely different laptop (or possibly use a eGPU but that's not well supported on budget laptops and is wonky overall compared to a dGPU.
• You pretty much hit the nail on the head around "VR Ready". It's marketing, nothing more. Desktop and Laptop OEM's slap "VR ready" on devices to sell and market them. There is no universal standard for what constitutes "VR Ready" and a huge portion of the current "VR Ready" devices on the market are completely incompatible with HMDs released in late 2018 and early 2019. 
  • Vive is not involved with the "VR Ready" marketing. This is entirely done by PC manufacturers. 
• As stated above, your laptop will be incompatible with the following HMDs: Vive Pro, Valve Index, Oculus Rift S, Pimax, and any other HMD that requires DP 1.2+ signals.
• Your laptop is suited towards: Vive CE, Oculus Rift (not S!), and Windows Mixed Reality
• "Thunderbolt is basically a DisplayPort with extra stuff"
  • This is extremely inaccurate from an engineering prospective. While they share the same header, there is a laundry list of differences in how the signal is generated, propagated, and decoded for the display.
  • Thunderbolt 3 ports in some cases can support Displayport 1.2+ signaling via virutalization or via native hardware support. If you have a Thunderbolt 3 port that doesn't support Displayport 1.2+ signaling, it's because the OEM has specifically not integrated the required architecture to save money and reduce costs. My Razer for instance has a port that supports both signal types. 
• "This should work, there is no good reason to my mind why it should not."
  • While I understand your frustration, you've completely ignored the system requirements of the HMD and there are extremely firm engineering reasons as to why Pro and numerous other HMDs are incompatible with this laptop. This was completely avoidable on your end by ensuring your system met the minimum requirements before placing an order (and even further by ordering a laptop that meets your use-case). 
  • You're buying an enterprise grade HMD with a higher resolution  and higher requirements than our consumer HMD, and attempting to run it off an entry level gaming laptop designed for casual gamers and Fortnight players. That laptop is okayish for gen 1 HMDs; not great but okay.  It's simply not suitable for higher resolution HMDs and you'll need to adjust your expectations of what that laptop's capable of. "there is no good reason to my mind" does not translate well into technology which has firm requirements which are clearly listed. 
• Realistically you should spec a laptop with a GTX1070 or GTX1070MaxQ and native Displayport 1.2+ support if you plan on using this laptop with Vive Pro or any HMD that's pipping higher bandwidth than HDMI can output. As I said above, you'll hit the exact same issue.

 

[HackPerception]

  As I was typing out my response, UploadVR posted an article talking about this 

 

https://uploadvr.com/oculus-rift-s-valve-index-no-hdmi/

[PatrickM]

Sorry but I disagree. I actually got the Vive Pro headset working in extended mode last night on my Dell G3 with a DisplayPort to Thunderbolt 3 cable, before one of my base stations bricked. The sound coming from the speakers is fine for about 5 seconds after plugging into Steam VR before it becomes wonky and distorted.

 

The article you shared is only partially correct, as the Thunderbolt 3 connects to the Intel GPU which is boosted by the NVidia graphics on demand. So it does work, and it can be made to work. I made it work yesterday.

 

Your excuse, both technical and on behalf of your employer, is that 'this headset is too good for the likes of your Fortnite gamer bro laptop' which is basically just an intellectually lazy and half-assed response, which I proved wrong yesterday anyway. It does work, and you, as technical supprt, just cannot be bothered to service your customers nor is HTC able to service any sort of coherent technical standard

 

Only problem now is the sound, which is crackly and distorted. You will probably blame this conveniently on the cabling again, but there are dozens on complaints about this is the forums again, and the only technical supprt offers is to switch everything from the hardware to the drivers to SteamVR 'off and then on again' until the correct sound patch is working.

 

Seems to me like this whole product is a hodge podge mish mash of tech anyway, and neither you nor HTC nor even your users have any idea to make it work out of the box, just like me. And then when it doesn't work you call us stupid and pen nonsensical rants which end up being non sequitor anyway.

 

 

[PatrickM]

My Dell G3 has the minimum specs because Thunderbolt can put out a Displayport 1.2 signal. 8th gen core i7, 32GB RAM, GTX 1060 Max Q, Windows 10. So basically you spent an hour writing a rant about me, saying I've completely ignored the minimum specs, like some idiot, and then posted a minimum spec sheet which the Dell G3 meets over 100%.

 

Congratulations, you played yourself. 

 

With that being said and me having proved you, the expert and the professional wrong, how can I now get my sound to work?

[PatrickM]

'

• You're buying an enterprise grade HMD with a higher resolution  and higher requirements than our consumer HMD, and attempting to run it off an entry level gaming laptop designed for casual gamers and Fortnight players. That laptop is okayish for gen 1 HMDs; not great but okay.  It's simply not suitable for higher resolution HMDs and you'll need to adjust your expectations of what that laptop's capable of. "there is no good reason to my mind" does not translate well into technology which has firm requirements which are clearly listed. '

Well when people who work in enterprise are as amateurish as you, it's no use the pot trying to call the kettle black, to my mind anyway. I have hacked around to make the Vive Pro work on the Dell G3 reasonably coherently. It would work perfectly if your organisation could be bothered to design your products properly, but you do not and then you blame the customer.

 

I can run engineering simulations, data science pipelines on the Dell G3 no problem. It's a great laptop, especially after modding with an SSD and extra RAM. Perfectly suitable for 'Enterprise Grade' applications in other areas, just not yours. Clearly this is my fault, even when it meets the spec sheet 100%.

 

I, as a very well informed consumer, have every right to believe that when your specs specify Displayport 1.2, a SUBSET of T3, a T3 should be more than adequate. You as a technical professional specalising this kit should know what SUPERSET means in terms of cabling, in terms of the engineering reality. The Displayport signal carries straight through a T3 cable the same as a DisplayPort one does, no hardware, firmware, up-or-down conversion necessary. You're the Silicon Valley pro, I'm just some guy who lives in Wales.

[PatrickM]

'You're both running GTX1060 - MaxQ. MaxQ is a less-powerful version of the Desktop 1060 - it is not equivalent to a desktop 1060 chipset. The GTX1060 Max Q is below the Vive Pro's system requirements; the difference between a GTX1060 and a 1060Max Q is significant when it comes to the higher resolution requirements of the Pro. '

 

The difference between these cards is 5% at most. I have the full 6GB VRAM Laptop 1060 version so there is basically zero difference. 

[PatrickM]

'You pretty much hit the nail on the head around "VR Ready". It's marketing, nothing more.'

 

Wrong. It is a configuration of ports and hardware that meet a certain minimum standard in the aggregate.

 

How, on the one hand, can I be flying around in Google Earth VR yesterday on a Vive Pro plugged into a Dell G3, yet on the other you claim this to be 'just marketing'? There is a configuration that clearly could work here if HTC bothered to make it work, but clearly they just do not, and then this is my fault.

 

What *you* are saying is marketing, nothing more, because your employer couldn't be bothered to design a system for edge slight edge cases. None of the problems I have faced have been unique to me or my setup. There are plenty of other reports of distorted sound, base stations bricking, flickering picture, the headset signal dropping out intermittently. This is not my hardware problem, it is yours. Why would I shell out another £1000 or more on a 1070ti i7 desktop when the same things will probably just happen all over again?

 

Can't we just accept that it is your hardware problem and not mine? That you need to make your products work for your customers who do read the minimum specs, do make every effort. Thunderbolt 3 is a SUPERSET of Displayport 1.2. This is the reality, what you are saying is not only technically incorrect but offensive and also legally shows that you don't even understand the hardware you are selling and supporting.