CrakeJ
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Posts posted by CrakeJ
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On 10/29/2020 at 6:26 PM, VibrantNebula said:
Cosmos, Cosmos Elite are not End of Life are are still mid-life. We are not proceeding forward with a launch of a "Cosmos Play" SKU.
Which HMD is going through FCC currently?
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How come these posts were removed - no notification to me, no one telling me I broke rules or anything?
Or was it because I told people they might like to hold off buying the (faulty) Cosmos until they see the new model?
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On 10/22/2020 at 10:40 AM, hamez88 said:
I actually ended up selling my cosmos on ebay a few weeks ago for about 3 quarters of the price, $950aud and went and bought the quest 2, the elite strap with battery and link cable and still have about 300 left over and have never looked back (till now because i wanted to see if anything progressed in the tracking situation here). It was such a worthwhile upgrade and i have already used it alot more in then i have in a year with the cosmos.
Your not gonna be able to get a refund and i highly doubt they are going to fix this issue because it would require to redesign the controllers to be infrared and new infared camera tracking plate, So i recommend sell it while you still can and get the quest 2. Look up Virtural Desktop and you can stream VR games from your pc wireless over wifi with very little difficulty. It does every thing the vive was meant too and more, (besides base station tracking, though its tracking is almost just as efficient as basestations, just cant put them out of view of the cameras) pretty much half the price, and it does it all much much better.
Fortunately PayPal ruled in my favour and I got my refund. I think mainly because there was a problem with the fan which was very noisy.... I could only play for half hour before it was way too hot.
Cosmos could be great, but they blew it - obviously thought they could get away with it. Still, a new HTC VR device is going through FCC screening just now. I'll probably be a Quest or G2 owner before we find out.
If HTC don't bring the price of their kit down soon, there won't be an HTC Vive at all. 'Modular HMD' - yeah, if you want to pay the price of another HMD to do that.
It's not rocket science @Htc
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On 10/21/2020 at 12:16 PM, C.T. said:
about #3, Elite is actually BS2.0 compatible. Same as Valve Index Controller.
Thought so... Thanks C.T.
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Valve Index comes with 2.0 base stations. Not sure about using the Elite headset with 2.0 base stations but I'm sure I've seen people using it with Valve controllers. @C.T. is very helpful and can probably give you a definitive answer.
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12 hours ago, LMulvey said:
If you've been offered a refund for the Cosmos, why wouldn't you just take it? It's clear HTC has no interest in offering an upgrade kit at this time besides the piecemeal one. If I was offered my money back for the Cosmos, I'd take it in a second. I've gone another route with VR but I'm stuck with a Cosmos collecting dust.
I thought I'd give them a chance to fix things - there were several things they could have done, but they chose to do none of them, leaving Cosmos owners high and dry - unless they get a refund - which I have done.
I'd recommend anyone who paid by card or paypal to see what they can do. The item is NOT as described.
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Sooooo - it's my fault. I put up the white cards even though I had proper lighting in the room - it still complained of environment being too dark at night, so had to do this to make it work! It should just work, right?
And my reply.........(in blue)
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Update:
Basically having asked me to DM them on Twitter - HTC @Vive_Care just ignored me. What you see on the previous page is where our conversation ended.
My Cosmos is on it's way back. I may pre-order the G2, or I am tempted to bite the bullet and just get a quest 2 (if I can get a FB profile that isn't mine!). I won't be rushing my decision though.
Others need to keep pressure on @Htc - they know what they did!
I'll be keeping an eye out here to see what happens - though I'm not feeling too positive about anything being done. Thanks to those who tried to help me out - you know who you are!
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4 hours ago, davide445 said:
This is not what I have written, so didn't know why happens to be in my quotation. Someone else later deleted his post?
Who knows with HTC!?
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So, after trying quite hard to engage with HTC support about the tracking problem, they've done their usual and just ignored me, so sadly returning my HMD for full refund. I wont be doing this quietly! I just cannot recommend ANYONE buys the over-priced Cosmos headset that doesn't work well. It might be OK for some beginners, or people that don't need accuracy or speed (?), but doesn't look like they're ever going to do anything about these problems.
You 'win' @Htc - but I predict that unless you change things radically - especially prices - people won't even know who this company was....
I tried engaging with @Vive_Care on Twitter and got this (by now, rather boring and repetitive) conversation:
QuoteMe:Hi, My name is John. The Cosmos doesn't work, the tracking just isn't up to the job. I don't get errors, I just can't play the games I want to play properly. Tracking spoils the overall enjoyment.https://www.roadtovr.com/htc-vive-cosmos-accuracy-test-controller/
It's very depressing reading things like thisYesterday, 12:56 PMAlthough things have improved, it's so frustrating that HTC does nothing for the users of the Cosmos. Anna in support has tried escalating my complaint, but it's just downgraded againShe's been very helpful, as has C.T. in the forum teamHow and when will HTC fix this faulty tracking?Yesterday, 12:59 PMjhxxxxxxxxxx@gmail.comYesterday, 1:39 PMYou did say to DM you......Yesterday, 9:18 PMVive_Care: (after prompting them to reply)Hello John. Thank you for reaching out regarding the issues you're having with the Cosmos Tracking. I sincerely apologize that you're having this difficulty. Because the Cosmos uses inside out tracking, the Cosmos is a bit different from any of the other VR headsets. The main difference is because rather than using the external base stations (which require to be set up in an actual 'play area') which a lot of users don't have the space for, the Cosmos uses the Cameras as it's 'eyes'. This means that the Cosmos has to be able to 'see' what it's doing and where it is. The lighting in your area of use with the Cosmos has to be well lit. You want to cover any sources of UV light (Windows / specialty lamps / etc.), for good measure, we also recommend that you cover reflective surfaces in the play area. Can you tell me more about your play area and a bit about how you use your Vive? If you keep having issues, there is a 'report issue' option in the Vive software. Please use that form to submit your feedback. That form goes directly to the engineering team and they use your feedback to influence what kind of updates to produce in the future.Me:I'm already in contact with C.T. from the forum team. I've run betas and provided feedback as instructed. The updates required are ones that make the tracking at least as good as other HMDs. The article above shows how badly cosmos performs compared to others that use less cameras. Controller positional prediction is poor and playing something fast like beatsaber is hard as the tracking is lost so regularly. There is much discussion of this problem on the internet including your own forums. YouTube channels pretty much ignore the existence of the Cosmos completely, having given up on it's poor implementation of inside out tracking. The problem of tracking loss when aiming a weapon isn't good either. The cosmos can't even work out which controller is in front of the other - something other, cheaper HMDs seem not to have a problem with. The main problem is that the cameras you've used lose focus when the controllers are close to them. Also, not being IR means that lighting is often more of a problem than it should be. The Cosmos is faulty - you know it and I know it. I've suggested many things to HTC (Anna in support) - use an extra cam attached to the pc or an upgrade kit for existing Cosmos owners the DOESN'T cost nearly as much as the Cosmos in the first place. I've been having 'issues' since I got this in April. No amount of updates is going to fix this as far as I (and others) can see. I had to put pieces of white card around my room tonight before it would even work! The lighting was good at the time. I feel enormously let down by HTC and Vive.12:11 AMNo comment on that then?4:42 AMWell, back my HMD goes then. It won't go quietly I'm afraid.10:02 AM -
5 hours ago, davide445 said:
Quest 2 has a lower refresh rate so far, will see in the future when will reach 90hz. For corporate applications such as I'm interested about has as primarily target hardware this mobile chipset, something not all realtime engine focused on industrial applications are supporting (they need powerful hardware you can find only in a real PC). Also does have in my view the "Facebook little problem" about data.
HP Reverb G2 is a Windows Mixed Reality solution with a compatibility layer with SteamVR applications. I didn't find nowhere someone disclosing how well this is working. I read a test with the previous Reverb also telling the square 1:1 format of the displays create problems in that settings. Ive seen it used primarily in sitten VR such as car or flight simulators.
Cosmos tracking has been anyway improving doing these months.
So in my view there is no one for all perfect solution, depends what you need and how well you know about the hardware and software limitations you are going to use.
I won't be buying anything from F Book. I just used these HMDs as examples - more are coming very soon. The G2 has better screens than it's predecessor, and it's part designed by Valve.
I'm glad it works for you. For us mixed usage users though we need fast, accurate tracking.
SteveKnows (just about to watch live q&a Re: Quest 2) is just one YouTube channel you'll find Quest 2 reviews (not sure he did the G2 yet). There are others which have review of the G2 as well.
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I'm getting sick of seeing very regular quest updates very often containing added features like hand tracking. @C.T. has been great, but he has his hands tied - they won't even tell us what the hardware inside is! (though I did find out if anyone is interested).
I've spent the lockdown doing beta testing, but now I've been offered my money back so I can't see any reason to keep the Vive.
HTC continue to be silent about these problems here or publicly. They're damaging their reputation by doing this.
I've suggested upgrade ktis for us -they ignored that.... I suggested that they consider another option like adding another camera to the pc to cover blind spots - also ignored (I know another manufacturer did that but can't remember who)
Therefore I really can't see how HTC can fix properly without upgrading us to Elite.
Please @Htc @HTC Corporation - tell us what will happen - preferably before I return my HMD next week for a full refund!
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On 10/8/2020 at 3:23 PM, davide445 said:
Ah ok something I know. Yes Oculus tracking is supposed to be better even if I'm satisfied of the Cosmos for my non-gaming needs, but the Rif S has less resolution and the Quest is an autonomous headset by design so really not comparable and so far with lower refresh rate, even if with the Link the thing start to blur. To be honest as corporate user I stay away from Facebook and his data hungry policy. Good to know what was you referring to, thanks.
The Quest 2 and G2 both use the new X2 chipset. Both are cheaper yet perform better. The main problems with the Cosmos are tracking accuracy and tracking prediction. I think both are 90Hz refresh or more, and G2 is higher resolution.
Check out this article - https://www.roadtovr.com/htc-vive-cosmos-accuracy-test-controller/
I also have a problem with my fan, but tho HTC offered to fix it they refuse to fix the Cosmos
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I really wish HTC didn't treat us like this.
Paypal have just informed me I can have a full refund for my Cosmos. While there are things I like about it, they are not enough for me to hang on and spend the price of another HMD upgrading the equipment which was faulty anyway.
HTC have offered to fix my noisy not working fan, but I don't think it's enough.
One thing I do know, if I take the refund, I will NOT purchase another HTC HMD. There are now many MUCH cheaper alternatives available which WORK.
I already offered to pay for an upgrade kit (rather than another £500+ for bits) for around £200, but HTC just don't seem to be interested in looking after us - and WE pay their wages. They ruined their phone business, and now well on way to destroying their VR business. I feel sorry for the HTC staff who have at least tried to help us.
I found some information about the hardware the Cosmos uses and it should be ample for the job, but again, newer, cheaper HMDs are available with much more powerful chipsets.
I'm guessing no one would talk me out of this decision? It's sad that because of the way HTC just ignores these problems I now feel like I shouldn't pay another penny to 'upgrade' to something that works.
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22 hours ago, Beta_Tester said:
Have you tried the latest beta? Subjectivity it appears to be much more stable & tracking is more accurate.
If you have a particular tracking issue (when trying the beta) please try to replicate and submit an issue report (through the Vive Console) and then post here with the trace number and tag @C.T.
Things do seem to be improving slowly!
Meant to say C.T. has been helpful and at least communicates with us. He's an asset to HTC.
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22 hours ago, Beta_Tester said:
Have you tried the latest beta? Subjectivity it appears to be much more stable & tracking is more accurate.
If you have a particular tracking issue (when trying the beta) please try to replicate and submit an issue report (through the Vive Console) and then post here with the trace number and tag @C.T.
Things do seem to be improving slowly!
I'm already helping C.T. our where I can with logs, thought just had to reinstall everything so not had much of a chance last few weeks........
Latest beta is better for aiming, but in faster games like beatsaber, tracking problems are still quite evident. -
While there have been some improvements in certain aspects of tracking, it is still a BIG problem for the Cosmos.
I'd really like someone from HTC to address this report - tell us what they're going to do about it? Have they contacted the authors of the report? Will there be more tests to show if there has been any meaningful progress made?
https://www.roadtovr.com/htc-vive-cosmos-accuracy-test-controller/
Support have stopped communicating with me since I said that I wouldn't return my Cosmos - in case I didn't get it back. I told them I'd learned that I'd bought my Cosmos from an 'Unlicensed reseller' (on Ebay), but gave them all my serial numbers and proof of purchase as requested. Not heard from them since.
I had many emails between us - them saying stuff from scripts like 'try this to improve tracking', and other nonsense replies, even though my question was about this article and how rubbish ALL of our devices are, not just mine! After many times asking to escalate my complaint, I eventually received a reply saying that they would escalate and let me know what happened.
2 days later I got another letter from the same department telling me that if I send it back they'll investigate. Basically back at square one!
I have found that if you hold the controllers out in front of you it loses tracking less often. I shouldn't have to find a bodge to make things playable.
It pains me that another WORKING Oculus is coming out. They can make it work, why can't you HTC?
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Nice to see some improvement, but......
There are still problems with tracking in fast games like BeatSaber.
Accuracy (especially at speed) is still a big problem.
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18 hours ago, lam0218 said:
HTC has been completely silence since launching this faulty Cosmos. We all know it is faulty design but they never never give us any roadmap or official statement. They just grabbed the money and left us all behind.
I also feel very surprised this product is still on their website.
Lastly, I really don't surprise they will leave the consumer market eventually.
What I don't get is why they don't try other solutions, like an extra camera on your pc (which I'm sure one non-HTC headset has done already)
If they remove the product from their site, it will be an admission to everyone, so they're avoiding that.
HTC has had some real potential, they've been an innovative company, but they just don't know how to look after customers.
Why must I pay £700 for the upgrade kit when the Elite is only £200 more than the Cosmos? Why are all the accessories SO expensive?
My complaint has at last been escalated - I'm not expecting much, but I'll update the situation here.
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10 hours ago, Fresh_Zin said:
I'm impressed that @C.T.never speaks about this, always with updates that don't change anything about the main VR problem (tracking)
HTC of all the companies I have ever bought a product from, you are the worst, not only for launching a defective product, but for not admitting the shit they designed.
Congratulations, if you want to be the worst VR company, you win 🙂
It will complete 2 months without an update, and I am sure that when the update is released, nothing will change in the tracking, A totally incompetent company, where your product will make 1 year of launch and still has not managed to solve the problem.
It's been a long time since I posted on the forum because I was waiting for a new update to see if there would be any improvement, but as the update didn't arrive, I'm here to express not only my indignation but that of all the consumers of this shitty product.
Have a hint of professionalism, put the whole team to fix this shit or make a note of clarification explaining that this garbage dont have fix and make a worldwide recall.
1 year of product, 2 months without beta update ... thx for nothing _l_
with love: angry customer ❤️
Couldn't agree more. I've started official complaint and am at point where I will publish their foolish email to me here and on social media.
I have suggested that since the Elite is $200 more than Cosmos, if they won't give us the upgrade kit FREE (which they should) they could at least offer it to us for $200 - instead of paying the rip off prices they want. I'd be relatively happy then. Why should I have to go to trouble of getting my money back and then buying an Elite? I'm not even sure I want to do that now seeing as they won't look after us.
Do you want to go out of business HTC?
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Answered my own question - Found this published 6th August (sadly)
https://www.roadtovr.com/htc-vive-cosmos-accuracy-test-controller/
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On 8/13/2020 at 9:57 AM, TomCgcmfc said:
So, when are we going to see Oculus Rift S quality inside-out tracking with our OG Cosmos? I think we all deserve a proper response to this simple question.
Couldn't agree more!
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On 8/6/2020 at 7:13 AM, 993142080@qq.com said:
Object tracking is essential for a fully immersive virtual reality experience. In order to support interaction in the virtual space, the system needs to determine the location of the headset and peripherals, so as to realistically depict the virtual world. It can be said that tracking accuracy is an important puzzle for the persuasiveness and immersion of virtual reality.
A few days ago, the German organization Virtual Dimension Center (VDC) released a head-mounted display tracking system measurement report called "Head-Mounted Displays: Messung räumlicher Präzision bei VR-Trackingsystemen".
Virtual Dimension Center (VDC) is Germany's leading virtual engineering and virtual reality network organization. Since 2002, VDC, which includes members such as research institutions, technology suppliers, and service providers, has been cooperating on topics such as simulation, visualization, computer-aided engineering, and virtual reality.
For this experiment, the researchers attached the device to the robot arm and moved the virtual reality controller between two points 500 mm apart. The tracking performance of position 1 and position 2 will be measured by dedicated software and tools, and the results will be presented in the form of tables and graphs, including maximum deviation, average value and standard deviation.
As shown in the figure, at position 1 where the controller is closer to the VR headset, SteamVR Tracking (outward-inward tracking) is the most accurate tracking system, with a deviation between 084 and 0205 mm. Oculus Rift S (inside-out tracking), Oculus Quest (inside-out tracking) and WMR (inside-out tracking) are close to standard deviations. The error of Vive Cosmos is obviously higher: the deviation of more than 2 to 3 mm per axis is significantly higher than the average.
It should be noted that ART's ultra-precision tracking system is designed for professional application scenarios and is not sold to ordinary users. We can see that the deviation of this outward-inward tracking system is less than 0.1 mm.
For position 2 where the controller is farther away from the VR headset, the accuracy of the inside-out tracking system is significantly lower than that of the outside-in tracking.
According to the measurement results, the tracking system accuracy of Oculus Rift S is lower than that of Oculus Quest. This is a bit surprising, because the PC provides more computing performance, and Rift S is equipped with an additional tracking camera.
The researchers pointed out that there are significant differences in the accuracy of each tracking system: ART and SteamVR Tracking have sub-millimeter accuracy and are suitable for areas that require high-precision tracking, such as design, 3D modeling, medical technology and simulation.However, since there is no need to install external sensors indoors, the use of inside-out tracking is more flexible. The research report stated that systems such as Quest have sufficient accuracy in collaborative applications and are suitable for use cases such as communication, meetings, training, and product demonstrations.
When were these tests done?
I've found things have got MUCH better in recent months. There have been MANY updates. Admittedly I've not used other systems yet (I will be, very soon!) but have definitely found things getting better, including when tracking is lost, corrections are often made now - for ex in B Saber, i'll SEE that tracking is freaking and my saber missing the block, but I don't lose the point - something which never happened when I first used Cosmos.
Should these be recent tests then they are VERY disappointing and will most likely see me ask for my money back. Like others are saying, why can oculus get inside out tracking working and HTC cannot - a year after the product has been released. Why has no other option, like an additional camera on the PC, been offered?
HTC - what happened when you were testing these devices before release? What are you going to do? Very few of us will pay more than we paid already to upgrade to the Elite with outside-in tracking.
Soon I will look into reporting this product to my local government consumer protection office if something doesn't give.
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Have to say I'm very disappointed by the price of the upgrade options. I'm afraid HTC are going to price themselves out of the market, like they did with their phones. I might ass well just buy the Elite, index or something else in the first place. If Oculus can fix their tracking - and even move onto hand tracking, then unless the hardware is incapable, the Cosmos should be able to do it.
What we need is a trade in scheme - we return our flashy controllers, and the faceplate, for Elite faceplate, 2x controllers and 2x base stations, for £250. The Elite faceplate is £200 here, controllers are > £100 and base stations near to £200 each for (up to date version 2.0), so another £700. Double the cost - don't you see that HTC?
You need to get ahead of the game HTC, please don't make me feel i have to return my headset!
P.S. ALL accessories are too expensive!
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I posted videos available to public Re: New HTC HMD Incoming - they were deleted
in General Vive Discussion
Posted
No, the plain Cosmos
Fair enough - though the information is freely available elsewhere, and it is related to the faulty Cosmos tracking if you're releasing something to perhaps replace it, that has better tracking.
It's a shame your teams don't respond quite as quickly (or at all) to people talking about the awful inside-out tracking of the Cosmos. There are those from the forum team which do their best to respond to the tracking questions, but no one else responds to any requests for information, or to users requesting help or upgrades to remedy the problem. Not a single word.